A Suite Proposal

[cherrywood]

see what I did there with the pun

Hello Chelonauts! As part of our game changes, one thing that I'm looking at is a suite realignment: that is, condensing the Foreigners who are spread out across the housing blocks into smaller groupings to help encourage new CR to be built.

There's a couple of options that I'm testing the waters with and they are: keeping everyone in separate suites but filling the housing blocks (so basically the same setup as now, just with more neighbours) or condensing everyone into roommate/flatmate housing, and with OOC versus IC logistics for both options. Either way there will be IC justification (Evandau orders them, etc) for the change, so this post is for discussion and ideas of what players would like to see.

The primary goal for this change up is to open new CR for characters (which translates to more plotting, more character development, and easier ways to make AC!) so while you're welcome to use your characters as examples for or against various options, this is mostly focused on what you as players feel would benefit you the most.

Based on the outcomes of this discussion, there will be a poll put up later for people to actually make their votes on the matter. This is just for people toss out their ideas and the poll choices will be built from these.

Comments

[parallels]

Personally, I feel that if the point is to build CR then consolidating into blocks will not be particularly beneficial. Even when the game was more densely populated, being in the same block was never a source of CR. Even now I don't know who lives in Clara's block.

So I think working out a good way to do shared suited would be a more worthwhile thing to explore.

[akito]

Dittoing this.

[nowthatsfunny]

First of all, apologies in advance for my teal deer! I'm trying to clarify this in my own mind so laying it out here I think will help, but it might get long. *g*

The way I see it, we have four basic options:

1) We keep the mechanics the same (one character assigned per suite, four suites per building) and just consolidate so more buildings are full. I think this would be the easiest way to go and I don't have any objections to it, but I also don't think it would really do much to further CR between characters - I know I, personally, have never had much CR with other characters in my characters' buildings just because they happened to be neighbors, so I don't see how consolidating this way would change that without additional incentives - and what those would be, I have no idea!

2) Some kind of roommate/pairing system is set up, with an IC sign-up for characters who would ICly be interested in having a roomie. I think this would probably be the easiest of the three "roommate" options to justify from an IC perspective, but would also be the least beneficial in terms of generating new CR for people who might be having trouble - since it would automatically favor characters who already have lots of CR/are very social, etc.

3) A roommate/pairing system where we can OOCly sign up individual characters, regardless of whether those characters would ICly choose to do it themselves. I think I like this option the best because it offers us OOC flexibility (so me and Shea could sign up Booker and Liz and they could get a third person to live with them, but I wouldn't have to sign up Tess because she would have serious Issues with sharing a suite with a stranger). But it might be the toughest to justify ICly, I don't know how you'd work that out (maybe ICly it's randomized who gets paired up and who gets left alone).

4) A roommate/pairing system where every character gets paired up randomly, full stop. This I can see causing the most potential problems for certain kinds of characters (really secretive types, characters with PTSD or serious trust issues, codependence, etc.) but it could work as long as there was still a way for characters to ICly shuffle around if they needed to.

I think as long as it's possible for characters to ICly shuffle themselves around, a roommate system of some kind could work, though it might defeat the purpose if too many characters are shuffling around. But ultimately I think I like that third option the best, it seems like it'd be the most flexible.

Anyway, that's my two cents!

[wrathfulkhan]

Just jumping in to say I think #3 would be the best solution, if we're shaking up the housing at all, since it gives players the ability to opt characters in or out regardless of whether the characters themselves would choose to, but without forcing particularly secretive characters into group housing against their players' wishes. I have a habit of playing characters who tend to find it hard to connect with people, so I don't think that for me personally it would improve CR prospects.

I don't really...see why we need to, tbh. Don't fix what ain't broke.

[sophos]

Slides in under here to just say I really like the third option here, sort of opt in/opt out

[parallels]

I agree that 3 would be the most ideal so it can be a tool for people who want and need it and everyone else can carry on the way that has been working for them. Of course suite mates are no promise for CR but it's at least something new to talk about and a possible stepping stone to CR.

Personally, as someone who has probably lost about 90% of her character's CR and am kind of feeling down on the game overall, it would be helpful for not only a chance to make new CR but just to distract from Clara's miserable IC state.

[strategisch]

I agree with number three-- I'd love to have some forced CR on my own reclusive character, but I wouldn't dream of forcing anything on someone who doesn't want it. That would just end up in bad feelings and having dead-weight CR.

I've also lost an innumerable amount of CR over the past month or two, and I'm pretty desperate for anything just to keep afloat on the AC.

I would suggest pair-ups be sector-based, however, since my character wouldn't feel as comfortable in a different sector. Unless someone else is okay with moving to another sector. That could be an option too.

[survival_isnt_living]

Also voicing support for nowthatsfunny's Option #3, especially as there could be flexibility to choose one or all roommates or sign up for randomization (this was used in a previous event--an investigations plot, I believe). There are, for instance, married or otherwise romantic couples who would cheerfully share (or maybe already do unofficially) and would not appreciate extra company.

[lostundercover]

Thank you so much for writing this out. You echoed my thoughts way better than I could have.

I agree completely with concerns expressed, particularly in option 4, and I also agree with the sentiments expressed in #1, that it would do little to bolster CR in any way.

Of options 2-4, I definitely prefer 3. I think IC selection would, as you expressed, favor certain characters - particularly those from large canons and/or those with lots of CR.

As a player of a character with major trust issues and a history of playing secretive types, I could certainly make option 4 work, but I would feel a little bit like it was discouraging those character types. I would be forced into creating an ic workaround (like a safe house) to be able to continue to play the character enjoyably, thus putting the onus on me as a player to put in more effort to maintain my character's enjoyability. At the risk of sounding melodramatic, it's a bit like a punishment for not playing someone more heroic/social/well adjusted. Again, it's something I'd be willing to do (I wouldn't drop over it or anything), but it's an attitude I'm wary of and which I worry might discourage new players/characters of that type.

Between options 1 and 3, I'd still vote 3. It would be cool to have that optional CR bridge and easy enough to justify icly with a "kedan are moving into housing Evandau is randomly reassigning." It's not like they got a choice on where they lived in the first place!

[browbeater]

I wouldn't mind having people live together in a flatmate/housemate situation. Good CR can come from that, as long as the roommate issue is incorporated into daily play. If it's just done to be done, I don't see anything changing with how CR is made.

Honestly, even if it did happen, I'm still of the opinion that it would probably be handwaved in TS, just due to the longstanding nature of the game.

[maipokerface]

This right here. If you want it to help build CR, you're going to have to do more than just stick people together in housing. They'll have to interact somehow in some way that can't be handwaved.

I'm all for it regardless though because if you do want the CR, you can always build it yourself. I wouldn't expect it in everyone's case though.

[akito]

if it's set up like a large dormatory, with shared kitchens and bathrooms and communal areas it would incorporate more character interaction. I know when I was in a dorm each floor had a living room, a private bathroom with signs on them basically saying no sexing in hurr, and a communal bathroom and even though I hung around in my room a majority of the time, I ended up forced to interact and make friends just due to proximity/running into them all the time.

[denyamenti]

What sort of things could be set up for having the interactions between suite mates on a daily or at least regular basis?

[alphatar]

I'm good with the way things have been rolling with the suite situation so far and haven't had a problem getting a little bit of CR that way.

[denyamenti]

What's something else you think could be used for CR, other then the housing?

[sophos]

I'm not particularly interested in having Annabeth change/move suites?? Like she's literally lived in the same one for over a year and a half now, and she has a lot of stability in that I'm really hesitant to shake up, so my first choice would probably be condensing them into existing blocks if necessary (though yeah that could also require her moving, too). I've no problem with things as they are now, and developing CR beyond casual encounters takes effort regardless of where the encounters happen.

If it does seem like people want flatmates, I'd definitely prefer it something that still allows for personal space/privacy, like, maybe a shared room/hallway what have you, but with definite separate living areas.

That's an element of the rooming/building situation I've always appreciated about this game compared to others where there's like, automatically two beds in the same room sort of deal going on. Forcing people to live together doesn't always have good or any results.

In a roommate consolidation (which would probably be one of the best way to foster new CR, in all honesty) maybe something like, switching up entrances to private suites into the interior of the buildings rather than exterior? And a common room of sorts, maybe a shared kitchen, but something that still allowed individual suite privacy. I think a lot of characters are accustomed to that, and while having roommates would probably make it easier for CR, I really don't want to lose that sense of privacy.

And lbr, some people are always gonna be anti-social jerks, so even having a roommate could yield little CR. Like, not all characters function the same way, and it could do nothing for them. Just like some people have gotten great CR just from being neighbors!

I also like what nowthatsfunny said about having an option to choose oocly which you'd prefer, if changes do end up coming about, especially if the changes are strictly into roommates rather than something more communal. There are definitely characters who might take to living/sleeping elsewhere rather than stay with a stranger, and then there's no point to it.

[denyamenti]

Sorry to clarify: when I'm talking about sharing suites, it would be common areas like kitchens and living rooms. I'm not considering a situation that removes all privacy like... bunk beds.

[skybluejeep]

How would this affect the network consoles? (If this has been touched on, I apologize, I missed it if so.)

As it stands right now, every suite has one, and each one is assigned to particular characters. Would suites now come equipped with multiple consoles to accommodate multiple characters?

[denyamenti]

Not sure yet as far as consoles go, it'll depend how people end up grouped. But I still intend to have everyone have their own console login, at least.

[unobtainableredemption]

Personally I'm indifferent to the idea. If it happens I have no problem with it, but like people have said I can't necessarily see how this will improve CR, as there were suites sort of set up like that at A_Fac, and as far as I could see that really didn't do anything for or against CR.

[denyamenti]

If rooming people together in joint housing isn't likely to improve CR, what sort of regular activity do you think might have a better chance?

[khajidont]

I've been in two games now in which rooming situations were (opt-in) randomly generated, and I have to say that it actually worked out great for building CR! I actually got some of my favourite, close CR that way (and have an entire roomie mingling post in my other game!)

If you're the type to just want to handwave those interactions, you can go ahead and opt-out, but if you're looking to toss a couple characters together, it's a great way of making some new CR. Option #3 that Tess' player put forward seems like it would work out just fine. One suggestion - which may or may not be doable, as I understand it! - is just to have some of the housing damaged by some attack or another, so that willing (or perhaps unwilling) characters end up rooming together until new lodgings can be arranged for them, and for others.

/Saint Walker-mun

[denyamenti]

ICly I'll end up having a reason to prompt it anyway, but I can't work on that until I know what/if the shared suites idea is even gonna fly.

[flamingshortshorts]

A later comer to this part of the discussion and reading over everyone else's comments there is something coming up here that I do think needs to be mentioned, but let me put in my own personal opinion on how to go about this first. I do apologize for all of the tl;dr here I just woke up not too long ago and I might be rambling a bit.

nowthatsfunny listed four options that could be used and of hers I do think that three has the best potential since it allows flexibility and player choice, but I personally would go with a fifth option that is a mix of 3 and 4. Everyone is required to take a roommate, but we as players get to choose OOCly whether we put our characters into the randomize hat for rooms or if we sign them up with a designated roommate we set up beforehand (like say I could put Kaldur into the randomize list, but I might sign Toro up to room with Bucky or Jim), while still leaving the option open for characters to move around ICly if they want. But just as with the current state of the suites, if you move in with someone else and use their console, it's theirs login that shows up not yours. It would allow players to have a choice, while also setting up the precedent of a flat ruling across the board because really if you give players the choice to randomize or to have personal rooms I do see many taking the latter option and defeating the purpose of rooming in the first place, which is to open more options for CR that they didn't previously have.

Now, if we did have an IC way to go about the rooming and housing blocks that would encourage CR just the same, I think nowthatsfunny's option 3 is the best one to go with. Maybe if we had a people housed off in areas set up by their skills and what use they would have in protecting the relocated kedan, doing recovery and repairs around Keeliai after the bombings, or something like that it could work. This is an option that I don't have as many ideas for at this moment, but I think if we chose to go with it, we could come together and think up a several good ones. At the moment though, there doesn't seem to be a good IC reason why some characters would be roommied up and others wouldn't and it would create a bit of disconnect should new players come in and wonder why they don't get that same option.

Of course none of these solutions matter when looking at this post right now what I am seeing is quite a few comments saying "Players would handwave anyway so what's the point." We are the current playerbase. When they say "players" they mean us. We are the people in game right now who are going to be affected by this change and will be the ones who will help it sink or swim. It is very important to consider how this would look to new players and potential appers, but the main focus is going to be how will it affect the people in game and how will we handle any changes OOC and IC.

There are multiple comments about how CR between roommates can and will be handwaved. Which is true, it happens easily in games where roommates are a requirement from the get-go. Some handwaving is undoubtedly going to happen. These comments say there is no point to it if it doesn't make CR happen between people, which I disagree with. The thing is that we as players cannot be forced into doing anything. Roommates and housing rearrangements are not going to make us make CR, they can only create options that facilitate easier CR making if we the players choose to utilize them. So are all the mentions of "CR will just be handwaved" our playerbase saying that if this option was open to use that we would not bother using it? Are we admitting right here that this is something we'd wave off and put in the periphery instead of putting it to use to build new CR?

Because in that case, if the playerbase is saying we would rather handwave CR if roommates were to become official, instead of using them to make new CR (whether with roomies or new people in these new housing blocks), it really does defeat the whole purpose. You as the mod can move things around and do what you can to open up CR opportunities, but if we the players are already saying we aren't interested in using the options you give us, you shouldn't be wasting your time putting in all the effort.

I'm not saying this to disparage or point fingers at anyone who has brought up that handwaving can and will be a thing. The exact opposite, really. This is something you need to know now before it gets any further into the planning or official stages. If this is what we say we are going to do if this happens, you should know about that when making your decisions on how to proceed with the game. There is nothing wrong with being up front about what we are or aren't interested in or willing to do. Honesty is important and if we are saying we're not interested in doing anything with this besides handwaving, it's us saying stop right here before it gets any further.

So the first question I guess we should be asking as a game is not "should we make roommates a thing," but instead we should be asking ourselves are we willing, interested, and invested enough in taking the new options this would open up and doing something with them. Because if the majority of us aren't, then why bother doing it? It's waste of our time and yours.

[strategisch]

It's too bad though, because it's something that I, and I'm sure at least a few others, would definitely work with for new CR. But I agree, if the masses would just handwave, I wouldn't put all that work on the mods for so little benefit.

(Also not saying that handwaving is bad or anything, there are always portions of play that make more sense to be handwaved, and if you're not interested, you're not interested. I wouldn't blame anyone for just plain not wanting to do something they don't think they'd have fun with.)

[gathersnomoss]

Adding voice to the idea of random roommates, since I've played in games before and it provides a nice prompt if you want it and can be mostly ignored if you don't. Or possibly some kind of non-random but non-player-generated assignment, though that would be a project for someone. (I'd probably volunteer myself because I think if I suggest it, I better be willing to do it to help.)

[denyamenti]

Not sure what you mean about "non-random but non-player-generated"?

[12goingon113]

I don't really know that either change would really affect Aang or Mike.
Both of them could be given drastically new housing, but they'd still end up gravitating towards the people they know.

In Aang's case: Korra.
And in Mike's case, his cousins.

Which isn't to say I'm against the idea, because I think it'd be really interesting to watch the fall out of someone actively trying to relocate either of them.

[denyamenti]

What would be something that would get them to branch out?

[andaway]

I totally agree with Fey up there (Saint Walker mun), and let me add the housing mingle would be a great idea to encourage the CR not being hand-waved. I've seen it work greatly in other games and it's a way to let people who would actually thread the CR out... well, thread it out, while allowing others who would handwave or outright ignoring the CR to do so. Plus if you have the mingle you might as well go 'huh why not' and throw your characters there even if you weren't actually meaning to do anything with that CR at the time.

Honestly I think some kind of general mingle log could be a good idea no matter the option we end up taking- which by the way I'm fine with all the options, I've already stated that I wouldn't mind seeing Clark throw a fit about random roomates but I am also fine with things the way they are now. I just think the suites are a source of possible CR that ends up unused (and I am just as guilty of that, I don't even know who most of my character's neighbors are) and something like that could help us figure out HOW to use it?

[nowthatsfunny]

Have to +1 the idea of trying to find ways to do more mingle-type logs in general. I think they can help a lot for throwing characters together who might not otherwise have an excuse to talk and jump-start CR for newer characters, etc.

Hell, even just some kind of player-run, monthly (or bi-monthly, idk) meet-and-greet hosted by the welcome committee or something.