More Changes! (AC/Endgame)

[ironwood]

(I am so sorry to keep filling up the OOC comm with these posts, we're trying to roll the changes out as they're coming up.)

ONE. Effective immediately, we are removing the double activity requirement for applying for a 4th character and changing it to "having passed the last two consecutive ACs with your full roster". This does not include passes gotten by hiatus or by new character exemption. The strike policy (one per character every six months) has not changed. If this goes well, we may consider expanding to larger rosters in the future.

EDITED TO ADD: If you are on hiatus but have passed the previous two ACs before the hiatus, you can still apply for a 4th character. For example, if you passed January and February's AC normally and were on hiatus for the month of March, you could still apply for a 4th character in April.

TWO. Later in June, the modteam will be reviewing the proposed endgame that was put into effect last year, to see whether it still fits with the plan of the game -- specifically, we will be looking at removing it if that seems feasible. As such, we'd like to invite all our players to express their opinions on that potential change in this post.

Thank you!

Comments

[skybluejeep]

Wearing my player hat here for a second, and then segueing into my mod hat:

I think the announcement that the game was closing wasn't conducive to the player base. Especially since it sort of dropped out of nowhere, with no input from us. As a result, we saw a huuuuuuuge spate of drops, leaving us at this point.

I want to rev this game back up again, gosh darn it.

My suggestion is that we do indeed wrap up the Malicant plot sometime soon (no later than six months from now) and then move the game in a new direction. TWO-Shanshu, if you will. (Two Sanshu Two Furious? Two-Shanshu Electric Boogaloo? Throw me a bone I'm dying here.) This is the discussion in June that Li mentioned. Because we're not there yet, but that's my suggestion, as both a player and a spanky-fresh moderator.

[trainwrecked]

Okay, I've been trying to spare brain from work to formulate what I want to respond with, and that last paragraph covers it pretty well. Extending the current war/plot further or canceling its resolution is not something that I'd like.

Finishing that off and continuing in a different direction? That, I can like a bit more.

[skybluejeep]

I'm trying to scrape together braincells without coffee at 6:30 AM. It's fun!

I am also invested, as a player, in the defeat of our shadowy pain in the ass. I do want to see a resolution there, as a moderator. So, yes. Moving the defeat of Malicant off to an indefinite postponement is not in the cards. Killing him tomorrow and closing the game is DEF. not in the cards.

[strategisch]

^this

I really have nothing else to say, lol. I agree on every point.

[andaway]

Yeah you've said it all better than I could, as a player you guys know my opinion is that end game killed the Tushanshu Star. I liked the plots and everything we got from it but it killed a lot of people's drive (including mine, I've only recently half-gotten it back).

Also Two Sanshu two furious is the best pun ever and I can see now why you're so good at Stiles

[skybluejeep]

Awww thank you! I'm blushing.

[hisbabygirl]

Gotta scoot to work in about three seconds so short reply is short, but man you've hit the nail on the head here.

[gathersnomoss]

Well, I like the idea that the plot is building to a head, and I can't imagine what sort of plot can top the ancient and cosmic evil type, but I wouldn't mind a postponement or shift. (aka we remove Malicant's influence from the turtle, but he's still present on planet...)

[lostundercover]

That's a really great point and I definitely like the idea of possibly turning things offensive (hunting Malicant down) versus defensive (dealing with him on the turtle).

[backwordscompatible]

One: stop making it so easy to app a fourth character, gdi.



Two:

a) I think I'm in the majority here when I say a lot of the "slowing down" of the game did begin around the time our original mods announced an endgame. It made sense objectively, especially as a sort of "warning" so far in advance so people could plot accordingly, and wasn't a big surprise to those of us who'd seen Roy and/or Alex talk about the game only being planned X number of years on plurk, etc etc...but there was just something about that sense of "okay you have this much time left and then ALL DONE" that sort of put people off. So I am extremely happy to see that plans to end the PLOT are still being carried out on schedule, but with the intentions of continuing the game afterwards with new shenanigans and adventures. A world like Tu Shanshu has so many possibilities. Personally, I can think of a dozen potential plots off the top of my head.

b) There was also another factor which may have contributed, and I think it was the shift in tone to a more War-like setting. Now, don't get me wrong--I'm hardly complaining in the least. I LOVE it. I think it's exciting and is really driving the game forward even moreso than when I first apped. Things are happening, and even during the downtime, there's that sense of unknown and mystery in the air. Even more so than when the game was first starting. I have two characters who are very much invested in this plot as well, but considering I also play Midii, I can somewhat empathize with those who felt like their character suddenly had much less to do. Not even so much because of a "darker" setting, per say, but simply because a lot of the subsequent plots and happenings were somewhat catered to characters who could fight. Which is to be expected, but I think it also ignored a lot of hidden potential for so much more to be done. Yes, the main purpose of the game is to defeat the big baddy. But in focusing on the offensive, a good portion of the Turtle Life has been lost.

Let me give an example: when the explosion plot hit, most everything was plotting how to help directly with putting out the fires or checking for more explosions or trying to find out clues as to who did it, or how to deal with those who were severely injured or even died. Characters dove straight into burning buildings to drag people out, and a lot of threads were very action-y based. What got lost in all the chaos were the few characters who took on entirely different roles. Midii, for example, was a very passive participant. She was a victim, yes, but once she arrived at one of the Shelters that had been set up, lost and dazed as she was...she accidentally found a purpose: to help look after the youngest of the children. The innocents in all of this. Even something as simple as reading them a story while everything else was going on around them, to take their minds off of the scariness of it all.

I think if some of the happenings of the game were broadened to give characters with those kinds of stories a chance to be told or heard from, it would open up so many more possibilities for muns who might otherwise feel like they've reached a Limit to what they or their character could do. Have missions with a little more variety. Not just sieges and highly advanced technological research, but even the smaller things like doing repairs to the city or trying to maintain the peace among the locals--whom have been repeatedly established as non-fighters. Not to say that some of this isn't already happening, but that I think it should be MORE of a presence. Show MORE of the city that everybody's trying to defend, and more to the War than just the fighting.

I know it was hinted at that something re: the baby Turtles might be happening soon...so that's a good start? Maybe? I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE UP TO SO I CAN'T SAY FOR CERTAIN but you know what I mean.

[strategisch]

Okay yeah I'm just gonna spend today riding on other people's more eloquent coat-tails, but this too!

Armin CAN fight, but it's very firmly established in canon that he sucks at it. When I try to shoehorn him into fightan-type situations it just... doesn't feel right or mesh well. He's so thoroughly outclassed by both his surroundings and peers that I have a hard time finding a place for him in the current plot. He usually ends up being pushed to the side. It doesn't help that I'm kinda shy, so when big plot events like the log when the explosions started happening, I... didn't have any threads or tags. I'm still kicking myself for not doing better on that one, but you can see what I mean. That was also like, right when all my CR started to vanish, so I couldn't count on that to help me.

BASICALLY WHAT I'M SAYING IS yeah Hina has the right idea. There are a lot of big, powerhouse type characters on the Turtle, but there are also weaklings like Armin that aren't particularly remarkable, and I'm kinda lost on a way to contribute. I'm trying to fix it, like right now on the CR meme, but if I can be helped somehow I'd also appreciate it.

[lostundercover]

First off, thank you so much for taking the time to right this and for offering real criticism. That's what we want!

You make a really excellent point about the war tone being catered to certain characters type and I've heard similar sentiments from other players. We can certainly keep this in mind and make an effort to extend mod missions to include these kinds of things, but I think our ultimate goal is inspiring players and providing them with the platform to write more of their own player missions. Repairing a specific building and uncovering a ruin, for example, could be an awesome player-run mission and something I would love to see - and even to help write! Like I said though, we'll definitely be aware of it and can make an effort to include more in mod missions as well.

Can you think of other ideas, in addition to the missions, where we, as mods, could help support this? Things like the Hydroponic Garden are some of my favorite in character happenings, but they were presented by players. I'd love to brainstorm ways that we could help encourage those kinds of less war-like ideas (beyond the monthly lighthearted events we already have planned)!

[hisbabygirl]

I'm definitely agreeing with you here, and feels like a chunk of this is tied to a plurk I made a few days ago sooo

Just wanted to elaborate that Sarah's been hard for me because of the reasons above, but getting her out to do things that aren't fisticuffs and duking it out with Mali have been a little restricted as well just because of some of her CR. She's a kid, and that CR wants to keep her safe, only it's really holding me up on being able to get out and do things.

So yeah! I'm working on it, and I'm trying to find things for her that cater to all sides. This is mostly irrelevant to the main post but felt I should say something. XD

[meanandgreen]

Now it's my turn to go against the beaten path, it seems.

When I first apped into Tu Shan as a brand-spakin' new game with Hellboy, the fact that this game did have a set plot and an end in sight was extremely appealing to me. And it still is! I think games that just go on and on forever get tired and old after a while. And for me, personally, the slowing down of the pace isn't necessarily a bad thing.

The way things are now reminds me more of how it was when things were fresh and new and exciting, and the game was still small. I would love to see the storyline stay in place, and for the game to actually end. Maybe it doesn't have to be as soon as March of next year. Postponing that in some way wouldn't hurt, I think. But if we start planning things out with no end in sight, I'm afraid things just might get stale.

Before Al and Roy dropped the mod team, I thought I'd heard rumor that there might be another game like Tu Shan opening after endgame. I thought that was an excellent idea. I had hoped it would give characters a fresh start while still keeping their memories and character development.

If reaching an endgame is really something everyone is opposed to, my suggestion would be to continue with the Malicant plot, send all the characters "home" after his defeat, then bring them back again in a new but similar setting.

That might be a little farfetched, but I think it would keep things interesting.

[survival_isnt_living]

Well, this is actually something I both agree and disagree with.

On the one hand, games that go on and on and are very specifically 'plot and setting' type games, and not sandboxes-with-consistency, can get very tired and plodding and just fizzle out. Postponing it and filling with other plots making the setting grow and not resolving Malicant--or not fully resolving--is definitely one way. Me, I'm not terribly invested in game ending or not; I'm very used to gaming styles with definitive ends, and yes, you're sad, but half the fun is in living through it and half the fun is in deliberately building towards an awesome climax, one you can tell stories about for years to come and have it never get old. Game ending? Could be awesome, guys. But it's up to us to make it so, and not just go 'oh but never mind.' Frankly, if that happened, that's on us.

I do not, however, think that the correct answer is 'yay defeat,' send them home, and then cycle through that again. That's stale in a different way: it just gets repetitive. If the only plot ever is 'and beat back Malicant,' well, find something new please? Besides, part of the continuity that people do like--and which I would also appreciate if it continued--is not just memories, but of lives built up. Uprooting everyone and starting over is, again, kinda a 'sigh and back to square one and go through the same motions again' thing. This seems suboptimal.

The other reason I dislike it is that it seriously cheapens accomplishment. This is kind of based on my experience with tabletops and LARPs. From an IC perspective, if they Win The Day!!! and then find out oh well maybe not that can get disgruntling.

A more balanced approach, which allows lots of 'hypothetically indefinite exploration' and one that allows for game ending on short notice if need be at some point in the future: they defeat him, but explicitly know at the time--maybe due to incomplete information--that what they've done is bind him but it isn't final, and they still need to search for how. Then other plots and things exploring this world and helping it grow and recover and, just maybe, prepare for the next big fight against him can fill plot arcs and growth. When some Malicant Fighting is needed, that can pop up as a recurring supervillain, but is not the constant primary conflict--and whenever game needs to end, well, they find the key to finally ending him and do so.

It would keep continuity of memory and life, it allows for exploring much wider areas, it allows for continuing on in this setting if we choose, it allows for reliable conflict when needed without requiring that one all the time (which gets repetitive), and has a set resolution whenever the time has finally come.

[lostundercover]

I really like your ideas and appreciate you speaking up. I'm honestly not 100% sure how I, personally, feel about the endgame; I agree with you about games fizzling over time, but I've also seen some continue for 6+ years now and still be fun and interesting for the players involved.

Anyway, not the point. Point is, I appreciate your ideas. I think if we do go through with the endgame, sending them and bringing them back could be a really neat way to do it with a lot of potential for both familiarity and change.

[tactile_telekinesis]

I'm actually in agreement with you.

I liked the idea of the fact Tu Shan started off with an end-game in sight and the dark vibe from the offset (it just happens that it's getting darker and war-like but people should have known it would happen?). I know from personal experience in games that tend to just run that I lose interest as it seems to drag, even if I love the setting. The fact that Tu Shan was something new (giant turtle and big evil such as Malicant) with the fact that characters were brought to fight in a war is what I love about this game. Obviously the thought of it ending makes me sad, but the thought of it being dragged out makes me feel worse about it.

I thought I'd be the only one that was happy with the idea of a definite end-game since most people already commenting want it to go on. I think it would just lose it's...essence in a way?

[peacefullywreathed]

Disclaimer: I've only skimmed most of these comments but I think I've got the gist.

As a new player, I have to admit the current speed and size was one of the draws. The fact that the game was going to be ending soon was the only thing that put me off at all. And endgames are fine! You can't let a plot get stale.

That said, I can't think of any game off the top of my head which has wrapped up the major plot and then continued on in a non slice-of-life basis, and I really like that idea. We have a war; then we'll have the aftermath.

Not gonna lie, the prospect of a satisfying end to the major plot and then the ability to play out the rebuilding of a nation really appeals, especially with how many various factions are now on the turtle. The opportunity should be about following up on the war and how it affected the turtle's cultural and political sphere, and I think a reboot (send PCs home, bring them back) would negate the satisfaction of being able to change the face of the setting.

A lot of games have done reboots. What Tushan has is a perfect set-up for a political/cultural clash of views and motivations in a played-out post-war era, with room for world-exploration. How often does that come around in a game?

[akito]

Pretty much in agreement with you in all aspects!

[wrathfulkhan]

Cannot +1 this hard enough.

[skybluejeep]

This is precisely what I had in mind with my suggestion. :D

[skeletonenigma]

Jumping onto the +1 wagon. o7

[slides in here a month later with starbucks]

[solo_patria]

I really like your points with the idea of playing out the reconstruction of the city. I've played in one other game where there was an end game goal of defeating a giant evil, but the mods and plot also allowed time for rebuilding (the late great White City, which was set during the events of Tolkien's Return of the King). This rebuilding tended to be a really good opportunity to let several characters grow and change, and allowed for those less suited to combat roles (healers, scholars, etc) to really have a say in exploring the world left open to a country after decades at war.

While there was an official game end, it happened after a good amount of time that had been spent actively dedicated to rebuilding, exploration, and the like. Given that we were dealing with a rather limited area in that game (I mean it was Minas Tirith which is a large city but STILL), and still managed to find roles for those who wanted them, and that the Turtle is relatively larger, with many areas left to explore and discover, and many areas that could potentially be dealing with the new effects of Malicant's defeat (have the countries we've met on missions had a different approach to it? What about countries we've not yet uncovered, or whom we have met during landfalls? Presumably Malicant's presence COULD have had an effect on them as well, and presumably they may wish for allies. What happens if one of these areas has a much different approach to all of this? How does this effect business between our traders and some of the cities and sectors in the regions where we travel? Are there more opportunities to bond together with those from other lands, or might they drift apart?) I can see a lot of opportunities to extend the game in this direction, really. I think that eventually this may result in us reaching a natural end game, but that there are plenty of other directions that can be taken and played out before that point in time.

I agree with those who have mentioned that Malicant returning/not being completely defeated would not really work out well. I would consider that kind of a cop out if that makes sense? It reminds me of Disney sequels which attempt to bring back an already defeated villain when there is so much room for other stories to be told. I also think we do need to defeat him as a player base or the entire thing is just a letdown.

But, yes, I really like the idea of getting rid of Malicant for good, and then playing out the reconstruction of the land and society for as long as we might be able to do so.

Granted, I think it only fair to consult our original mods to make certain that they are all right with the game continuing if this was a choice that we made.

[backinakidflash]

I am caught in between both camps.

I like the proposed end-game scenario. I like the idea of a definite, tidy end to the game. That's really all I have to say - it's like Supernatural (the tv show), sure it's still on. But after they beat the devil, was there *really* anything else to do?

I feel that announcing it ahead of time caused a disconnect in the player base and, perhaps, stalled out our applications. An end game might not turn off every player, but it turns off enough. I do like Solomon-mun's suggestion and think it could be interesting with the right set-up.

As an aside, for the war, I dislike the missions as a means of giving out intel and advancing the game plot, because it doesn't always trickle out to all characters as it should - particularly with the network being as compromised as it now is. Despite the fact that I play a super-powered character, I do see that it skews participation and knowledge in favor of such characters and leaves them dependent on the willingness of the mission members to make public posts or thread with them.

In short, I feel something will need adjustment whether or not end game is continued.

[powerofchange]

Very new player here, and my thoughts might be repetitive of some of those above but I'll throw in my two cents anyway.

What appealed to me about this game was honestly this part of the blurb:
TU SHANSHU is a community-based panfandom science fiction/fantasy RPG with occasional horror elements and an overarching metaplot.

I'm a plot person, to be honest. My interest in video games, books, anime, etc. is almost always influenced by the story - I'd play an old-school JRPG with horrible graphics and bad translation if the game's storyline appealed to me. And it's the same with RP. So I'll honestly be glad to see the metaplot reach its fulfillment here.

But a new chapter after the "final battle" would be nice, too, and maybe one that has a different feel than the current plot. Like, I dunno, the turtle actually lands somewhere, and people are like, "Oh wait, there's still land around here after all? Hurrah! COLONIZATION EXPLORATION TIME!"

All that said, I do understand how the game had slowed with the announcement of the endgame. It happened in the game I used to be in, and I loved that game. It was sad to see it fizzle, but at least some of us got to the "end" even if it really wasn't the same had it been played out with the rest of the player base. But thank you mods for reaching out to us players and letting our opinions count. ♥