ironwood: (Default)
ɪʀᴏɴᴡᴏᴏᴅ ᴇᴍᴘᴇʀᴏʀ ᴇsʜᴀɪ ([personal profile] ironwood) wrote in [community profile] tushanshu_ooc2013-07-20 10:39 pm
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Event HMD | Powerdown & Malicant Plot | June 16th - July 13th

As before, and for anyone who may have missed it, at the end of every mod-run event in Tu Shanshu, we try to toss up an open dialogue post so that the events can be discussed. This is mostly to see if everybody's as happy as possible with the direction the game is going, whether or not the events could be considered a hit or a miss, that sort of thing.

This particular HMD covers the Meta Power Reduction & Malicant joint event.

What are we looking for?
Feedback of all sorts! Did you like what happened? Did the event run too fast, or too slow? Were you able to feel like your character contributed or made a impact on the event? Would you like to make more of a difference? Has there been too much 'downtime' for the characters, do you have any suggestions to make about future events, etc etc? Did the event run long enough for you? Would you like to see more NPC-driven events, or less? Did you feel that there was enough for combatants and non-combatants alike to participate in?

OBVIOUSLY if you have more comments, questions or concerns than those listed above you can add those as well! This is pretty much just a general list.

Do we already have a focus?
In part, yes. We've identified the following issues with the event and would love to foster discussion on these points:
> Team Structure
There were some players that had multiple characters assigned to a team and others that volunteered and did not make the final teams. This was an oversight on Alex's part and she apologises! That said, do you have any suggestions on how we could avoid such an oversight in the future? Should we limit sign-ups to one character per player?

> Multiple Options
Each team was asked to pick only one option per clue set regardless of their characters' proclivities towards exploring multiple options. This was to reduce administrative workload and tie-in with the reduction of powers. Do you have any suggestions as to how we could make taking multiple options feasible for any future event structured in this way?

Note: Alex here! One option considered and taken off the table would be preparing all of the possible branches off the options and clues before the event starts. This is because I found creating the sets during the event really allowed me to adapt the scenarios to suit the actions of each team in a really organic fashion. In summary, it let the characters further influence the event rather than being stuck on rails (see: swizard). I'd really prefer to find a solution that allowed mid-event creation of the clues without sacrificing the multiple options, tbqh.

> Outcomes
The pre-event survey concluded that players were okay with getting dead-ends for their characters actions and so this was included. Two teams had a major impact on the health of the turtle and a variety had other impacts that lessened Malicant's grip on Keeliai. Do you think we should have included more largescale impacts? Less? More impacts in general? More complete dead ends?

We'd like to emphasize that any and all feedback is welcomed and encouraged! These are merely some areas that we've identified as concerns from our standpoint and would like to hear your thoughts on.

Do we have a form?
Yes, in fact! This time, we're offering a quick text form to help provide some structure to the feedback received. This form addresses some of the concerns we noted on a mod level and tries to give as much freedom as possible to anyone that chooses to use it. Please note that you do NOT have to use this form! It's provided as an option only. :3



Please remember, ANON IS ON for this and IP LOGGING IS OFF so if you have anything you'd like to say but maybe you're more comfortable putting it forth anon that is a-okay! You can also feel free to PM us at this journal, or to toss a private plurk at either of the mod accounts (those being [plurk.com profile] vonnerdyce or [plurk.com profile] reignsdown) if that suits your fancy. Any and all comments are welcome, and though participation in this meme isn't required it's definitely encouraged if you're up for it.

Thanks again, guys, and happy turtling!

[personal profile] urbanmagic 2013-07-21 05:59 am (UTC)(link)
Did you have characters involved? Via teams or the independent investigations? Yup! In a team.

What did you like about this event? It was fun. It gave an opportunity for the characters to know other people and also show that the players can affect the outcome of a game. I don't see that a lot (usually it's just game does this, player reacts, rinse and repeat) so seeing that the characters doing something does help in the end is nice.

What didn't work out so hot? Actually had a bit of an issue with the multiple options thing, but I think that was on me since I figured by having that, we kind of already decided on a course of action so the characters more or less just end up threading for the sake of it? I don't know how to explain this. I admit I thought that the effect of the event happened too fast, like-- it's something that sounded like it resolved itself too quickly since I can see investigations like this taking a while longer. Again, perspective.

What would you like to see in the future? Expanding on investigations for the parts that weren't completely wrapped up. For example, drugs that may still be around, guarding areas that were compromised before, etc.

Do you have feedback specific to the team portion of the event? I think for multiple options, it might help if you do the one character per mun per event thing? In a game I was in previously, to avoid having an oversaturation of characters per event, what they do is that they have a sign-up form where everyone can comment and during an event, they will pick the first 20/30/etc and then the next event, the next 20/30 etc so that everyone gets their fair share. Noooot the best option I figure since it has the whole oh characters wouldn't be interested in this or that, so.

Alternatively I say just roulette it. Muns can sign up, but not everyone gets to be a part of the event. However, if the character passed this event, next event they cannot be used for it again? I don't know if that helps.

Do you have feedback specific to the independent investigations portion of the event? Nada!

Would you like to share any other thoughts, suggestions, or opinions about the event or game? It was fun! I enjoyed it, and sorry for not being very helpful ;;
Edited 2013-07-21 05:59 (UTC)

[personal profile] urbanmagic 2013-07-21 06:14 am (UTC)(link)
Nah, it's cool! That makes more sense to me.

I think a problem I personally had with the contents was that it gave you an idea of a start and a finish depending on the choice, and with that-- that's it. You know what happens, you wait for the next clue, so a thread would be pretty much just the conversation that happens in between. It's a problem I think with regular choice games because it makes people anticipate the results rather than the development, so I think maybe it would help if it wasn't overly detailed in the first place? That also ends up as a problem for the mods with the details since I figure this also means you're racking your brain harder than us which can't be fun.

But for what I meant up there, say... okay option a.) go here, option b.) go there, option c.) go there there. You give us the options first, then when we choose it, that's when you give the result? Because then we realize SHIT WE CHOSE WRONG and then we can have a different dynamic and it might not end as well. or it could be AWW YEAH WE DID RIGHT and then characters react accordingly, if that makes sense. Basically, since we already know what's going to happen if we choose something, we end up choosing too easily and not really thinking about the inbetweens so much. So maybe option first, wait for a reply, give the verdict, then characters can go SHIT OH GOD WHY and I will hope this makes sense.

And then repeat it for the next scene because now people are anticipating the oh how do we fix this for the mess and oh what's the reward if it works.

[personal profile] urbanmagic 2013-07-21 06:19 am (UTC)(link)
No problem! Glad to help whenever I can, and sorry for the rambling. You guys are awesome and I anticipate whatever future decisions you make.
lookedtothestars: (Default)

Thoughts on multiple option type stuff?

[personal profile] lookedtothestars 2013-07-21 06:34 am (UTC)(link)
I wasn't in game for/during the Malicant event, but multiple options for RP games (just usually one shot things) is a thing I've done in the past, and trying to prepare every single possible branch is definitely exhausting.

Instead of immediately preparing all the possible branches and their options and so on, I generally make the stuff -people, items- that's there, existing, and have a list of it all, with descriptive properties, so that I'd know what could happen if someone's character interacted with it, or what that particular thing would do.

So to extremely compress down something I used once to a single situation's list of items:

Players: Need to get information from a witch.

Girl: She looks upset and near tears. She is looking for her mother's- the witch- favorite magical cat.
Tree: An immense tree. It's the tallest remaining tree in the area. There's a cat in its branches about forty feet up from the ground.
Cat: The girl's mother's cat. It is in the tree, winged, and ill tempered.
Abandoned logging camp: It still has ropes and equipment for logging. There's an old firepit lined with rocks, and a tinderbox nearby.

These are things two different groups I ran this with suggested to get the cat out of the tree:

Use the ropes to climb the tree and rescue the cat.
Wait the cat out.
Use rocks from the firepit to knock the cat out of the tree.
Cut the tree down.
Set the tree on fire.

One group decided to climb the tree and rescue the cat. The other group set the tree on fire.

The first group's cat rescuer got scratched up, but they were able to get information and help from the girl's mom.

The second group got the cat, but didn't get any willing help or information, and continued making Poor Life Choices.

It makes things element based, rather than sequence based, so players can choose, but on my end I don't have to rush around trying to figure out what'd follow after because it's a loose web of connected things.

Dunno how much this apply here, but I hope it might give you some ideas there?
littlecousin: (Default)

[personal profile] littlecousin 2013-07-21 07:04 am (UTC)(link)
This is how pretty much every tabletop RPG system encourages you to run things, because No Plan Survives Contact With the Players.

Rule of thumb: in running a game, "what" is up to you, but "how" is something you should leave largely to the players. They'll surprise you, generally in a good way.
lookedtothestars: (Default)

[personal profile] lookedtothestars 2013-07-21 07:10 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah. It doesn't seem to get used too much for written or prose-based RP even when there's someone running the thing, however, which is a shame.

And it usually is a good surprise! When it is not it is still amazing, just in a horrifying way.
lostundercover: (paperwork nonsense)

[personal profile] lostundercover 2013-07-21 07:19 am (UTC)(link)
Did you have characters involved? Via teams or the independent investigations? Yes, 2 in teams and 1 independent (of 3).

What did you like about this event? The sheer amount of work put into it was astounding and I could really feel that as a player. It was well organized, well implemented, and really, really fun. I also liked the voting among teams (excuses to banter) and the excuse for CR.

I also really liked that those not selected for teams could still participate in independent investigations!

What didn't work out so hot? As I expressed before, my only real concern was for those players who weren't included in the team thing, because it was so fun.

What would you like to see in the future? If this same kind of thing was done again, I think players could pick which character they would most like to participate, then a second (ranked). That would allow the MODs to RNG one character per player and then, if excess slots are available, RNG to include some of the second options. (If less slots available, then RNG just the first batch).

I think it would have been cool to see more ending with "you were successful, but it had nothing to do with the turtle's health or Malicant." So not dead ends, exactly, but irrelevant. Also, at least one entire team should have died, hahaha.

I, personally, also wish Malicant had only appeared to one team. Having him appear to 2+ lessened the significance of it in a way.

Do you have feedback specific to the team portion of the event? Awesome awesome awesome.

The only thing I might have liked to see was a thread specific to conclusions from a player end. IE, in Hayley's team, the final fight and injuries were left to player discretion, but I, at least, didn't realize that until later, so there was never a concise answer of who received what injuries and whether they used their powers, etc.

Do you have feedback specific to the independent investigations portion of the event? I know Costigan's a wee bit different from the average, but I was really thrilled that you guys were so willing to accept my unorthodox idea. That option allowed me to be entirely IC with him without throwing him into the teams and also allowed a cool side plot (which now has pretty much all of his CR going 'wtf,' which is always fun).

On the flip side, I, personally, am a teeny bit uncomfortable with the amount of freedom I was given with it. The 'feel free to make up the gang and what Costigan has to do,' etc? I'm afraid of messing things up. :c

Would you like to share any other thoughts, suggestions, or opinions about the event or game? I obviously offered a lot of ideas for what I, personally, would like to see, but I really think this event was run extremely well and was amazingly enjoyable. Seriously one of the best (if not the best) plots I've ever participated in in RP.
littlecousin: (Default)

[personal profile] littlecousin 2013-07-21 07:24 am (UTC)(link)
There's more lag associated with written RP, which has the potential to make things unwieldy, but that can be worked around with well-considered box text.

I once ran a murder mystery at a con where I didn't actually plan anything beyond "hey there's a dead guy and you're investigating" and just let the players decide what was important--one of them was big into horses, so okay, sure, there was a coach with a distinctive team seen around the inn at about the right time, etc. etc. The players loved it, and didn't know they were the ones who'd written the session until I told them at the end.

ETA: Whoops, gamer slang. "Box text" means the descriptions given to players in tabletop games. In published adventures, things they're supposed to know are generally printed inside a box so you don't accidentally read off stuff that should stay secret.
Edited 2013-07-21 07:26 (UTC)
angermanaging: (Default)

[personal profile] angermanaging 2013-07-21 12:41 pm (UTC)(link)
Did you have characters involved? Via teams or the independent investigations? One for each.

What did you like about this event? As others have said, the extensive amount of work put into it was fantastic and awe-inspiring. I especially liked how much we were able to influence the outcomes with our characters, both in teams and with the investigations, so that characters who weren't involved in a team weren't left by the wayside.

What didn't work out so hot? I'd definitely limit sign ups to one character per player. I think that's more than fair. There's no need to go any further than that or try to find a way to double up for someone if there's space, because the game is getting large enough that, frankly, I don't want you to do all that work that comes with extra teams. XD

What would you like to see in the future? Shorter / less game overtaking events. Though I might be the lone voice on that one, not sure.

Do you have feedback specific to the team portion of the event? This might be a strange bit of crit, but I actually thought you gave us too much to work with in the options. RPers are slow to thread, especially in big groups like this, and I haven't gone over it but I know that my team at least will probably not thread out like 90% of the action. Given how much work you put into it, that seems silly. I don't think we needed more time -- that was a very long event OOCly by anyone's standards -- but maybe less to thread out, and smaller groups. Needing five people to make a decision became unwieldy, to say nothing of how long five person threads take. Maybe three person teams with more simple, straight forward written goals would work.

I have no idea if anyone else feels this way or if half the game loves it the way it was, re: group size and amount of detail provided, but that's my suggestions for limiting how much was assumed and instead getting people to thread more of it.

Do you have feedback specific to the independent investigations portion of the event? Just that I adored it and how willing you were to work with me. :)

Would you like to share any other thoughts, suggestions, or opinions about the event or game? I have now gotten SUPER invested into the health of the turtle and I loved seeing the plot have a real effect on the overall game. So that was awesome.
Edited 2013-07-21 12:42 (UTC)

(Anonymous) 2013-07-21 04:05 pm (UTC)(link)
I know this is probably going to be an unpopular view on things but…

There were a lot of things that concerned me about the plot. The biggest one was the power loss/reduction itself. One of the big draws for me at least to join TuShanshu was that it was not a power loss or nerfing game. Having that changed for an extended period of time without any kind of opt out was just bad form. It was like if the game suddenly became journal-based or had a smut requirement for weeks. Especially because the duration of said event was not only unclear at first but it kept getting extended and was teased to go on even longer than that. Even with the ‘it still maintains life’ thing, several characters were rendered unplayable. It could be beneficial to the game to not do such a widespread change again without an opt out. Perhaps a specific zone or area that those that opted out of the effects would be limited to but still able to participate in the plot or even have their own separate objects could help. It’s bad enough that ever landfall effectively locks several characters onto the turtle, having events that happen on the turtle that lock out characters is a bit too much. I am aware of the power surge devices but their laughably small effect time, availability, and the fact that they were whisked away by all powered NPCs at the end of the plot doesn’t make them in any way a solution. Another limiter following the plot feels worse, especially if there are going to be more events coming between now and 100% restoration.

NPCs are another area of concern. Despite the fact that the power drain was supposed to remove all powers and negate tech, multiple NPCs were using powers and technology just fine. While there may have been plot-related reasons for this, I feel it was handled badly. Even if the kedan suddenly lost their ability to shape shift, they still apparently had whatever ‘powers’ the forms they were stuck in granted them. The magic that popped up in places also seemed to give an unfair little edge when there was supposed to be nothing. It came off as another little stab at the characters rendered unplayable by a power loss.

I know players voted for there to be ‘dead ends’ but it feels like there were too little ‘good endings’. Only 2 teams having a positive effect on the turtle’s health seemed a bit low considering the sheer number of teams and characters involved. It adds to a sense of players not being able to have a real significant effect on the plot. Less dead ends and more large scale impacts would have been nice.

The whole team and clue set up I liked. It was a good idea and helped fix some problems I’d seen in other places. Limiting players to only signing up one character for team selections may help in the future. I did feel that there wasn’t really enough for those characters not on the team to do though. Maybe some single-shot leads to follow in a list and let people choose from them with new ones popping up each round of clues based off things the teams did? Such as if a team elected to follow a path that would chase a gang out of one sector but cause them to resurface In another, a one-shot where someone could try to figure out why that gang suddenly popped up or even let them deal with something like the new gang clashing with an existing one in the area. An open-ended thing is nice but making things a little too open ended can be bad too.

Regarding downtime, I feel there hasn’t been enough. The game has gotten considerably darker and more depressing than when I first joined in and while the ‘spa day’ was a nice change of pace, it would be nicer to have some less ‘negative’ events happening.

Finally, I would like to say that the mods are doing an amazing job running the place. I know how hard it is to mod a game and one as big and as active as this one is no cakewalk. But something has been bothering me and it became most apparent I this plot. I’ve noticed that at times, when asked questions regarding plots the responses given by mods come off as pretty rude and dismissive. Mostly towards players that raise some kind of concern, confusion, or misunderstanding towards an event going on. It may not be intentional but it is a little discouraging.
poeticverses: (Default)

[personal profile] poeticverses 2013-07-21 05:11 pm (UTC)(link)
Did you have characters involved? Via teams or the independent investigations? Sort of. Sadie was in an independent group, but it got bogged down.

What did you like about this event? The fact that the players wrote the plot, essentially, was a nice change. I've been in a game where players affected the world before and it can really be one of the coolest things. Most games either have everything laid out before the plot or try to get the players to direct it and either don't or railroad them.

What didn't work out so hot? Honestly, I don't think the independent teams were the best idea. With little mod input, it was confusing and things were unclear as to what, exactly, was going on, at least to me. Perhaps next time limit independent things to duos or trios, not a full team.

What would you like to see in the future? I am all for the one character involved in a team per person. I won't lie, I was a bit upset that my one character who'd be interested in helping wasn't on a team while other people had two people on teams. Maybe if someone has two interested characters they could have the other involved in an side thing, but two in the main portion of the plot was just not fair. I understand this was an oversight, though.

Do you have feedback specific to the team portion of the event? Not really, except perhaps if there is an event like this again and one team, in this case team seven, has some seriously bad stuff happen to them, the team and the mods figure out what happened to them on event end, even if the threads aren't done. It can prevent not only them but their close CR from doing anything until things are sorted.

Do you have feedback specific to the independent investigations portion of the event? See above. The idea was a good one, but it really didn't work out too well.

Would you like to share any other thoughts, suggestions, or opinions about the event or game? I am agreeing with the anon up there that the game took a major downturn in mood and, honestly, had the power loss gone on indefinitely I very likely would have dropped. I know the game is plot based and I am okay with that, but to advertise as a power-loss free game and then have that and tease us with the idea that it might be a permanent thing isn't very fun. I also agree with less negative events and less events that are harder to ignore. I felt the rationing went on for far too long, though I know why now. Still, if there is an event that is a pre-event to something this big, perhaps having them closer together or having the prelude less hard hitting next time will prevent burn out. (That, obviously, is only if it's possible for you two as mods. I know it's just the two of you running this and if something simply isn't feasible I don't think most of us are going to complain.)

All that being said, the idea of the event--the players having a huge impact on the game--was brilliant. You guys handled it very well aside from a few rough spots.
everylittlegirl: (nervous converse)

[personal profile] everylittlegirl 2013-07-21 05:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Ohhh. See, I just read it as the timelines between the two teams were slightly different, so he was just teleporting around or whatever. I didn't realize it was meant to be simultaneous. IF THAT'S THE CASE, I think that's a good reveal and withdraw my last comment.

A deadline and a formal place to put it maybe? Like "here's what happens, but details are up to you. Please respond here by [date] with details about your character's specific participation / injuries sustained / etc for team's awareness." There's still a lot of freedom in that, I think, but just asks people to communicate better? Honestly this could be a situation where I'm just thinking something should be more formal when I can obviously handle it separately on plurk or whatever, so it might just be personal preference.

THANK YOU.
angermanaging: (science γ and the ones we hail)

[personal profile] angermanaging 2013-07-21 06:01 pm (UTC)(link)
Event length is definitely extremely tricky to balance out. I feel on you there. There was an odd problem with the event being too short to allow extensive threading, but too long in that it limited players in what they could do with their characters while it was going on. In the future, I'd suggest forward dating intensive scenes like that so people have a chance to thread out further along before it comes up ICly in game.

I also think that smaller teams and less detail (and therefore less direction) will make it go faster. Creating an anticipation and uncertainty for the outcome would provide more incentive to participate faster, and make it easier with less IC information to contend with. So maybe more frequent, but far smaller clues-- not "this happens over the next five days" quite so much. Though that might get logistically difficult for you as having too many clues to give out. You might consider writing out loose environmental "scripts" such as Caro and July suggested above, and then it becomes a simple matter of copying over details that have already been decided.

As far as being inclusive, I don't think events like this need to be quite so wide scale. That might be part of the problem that generated the feeling of characters that aren't involved being left out, and new arrivals being boxed in at an awkward time. Limits such as one character per player, no characters that were participating during the previous event, and RNG'd who does get to participate from that resulting list might work best. But if you keep things cycling and don't allow characters to participate two events in a row, you should by necessity get a good distribution and variety.

tl;dr trying to include everyone and give them tons of things to do is really laudable, but I think as the game grows to this size it's going to create more problems than it solves. Players usually want a certain freedom to do their own thing and ignore what's going on, and when it's orchestrated on such a large scale, that becomes difficult. Keeping the events smaller scale would solve that and the organizational / work overload problem. People would just have to be considerate about who signs up.

ETA: basically what I'm trying to say is that I would be okay with fewer and smaller teams. It's just the nature of the beast that plots don't allow for everyone to be equally important, and that's okay. We're all writers here. if no one's monopolizing the plot important roles then I don't think it should be an issue.
Edited 2013-07-21 18:02 (UTC)
jirk: (Default)

[personal profile] jirk 2013-07-21 06:08 pm (UTC)(link)
He also only appeared to actually ICly mess with one team, the other team was sort of a 'oh look this dude is here?? BUT THEN HE IS GONE OH NOES', so only one team got the full effect. /fingersteeple.
everylittlegirl: (Default)

[personal profile] everylittlegirl 2013-07-21 06:32 pm (UTC)(link)
OKAY THIS IS NOT A SUGGESTION, just an explanation of my original comment, as I enjoy discussion.

My original thought was like.. I was in one of the teams he appeared to and was like 'oh shit oh shit oh shit.' But then he just left. A little anti-climactic. Then I read the summary and he had appeared to another team too and they didn't die either. So I was like '..oh okay.'

Like, okay, there are levels of villainy, right? There's the "I HAVE TO KILL YOU TO PROVE A POINT" and then, moving up, there's "I don't care about you because you are so insignificant," but then there's the "I'm going to kill you because, while I could leave you and nothing at all would happen, today I want to." In my brain, that's the progression.

So seeing him in two places with both teams surviving left me feeling like, "Oh, he's the 'I'm above you all' villain, not the 'I'm going to kill you because it's fun' villain. Which made me, as a player, less afraid of him, because that kind of behavior is more predictable. Unpredictability is what makes a villain truly terrifying to me.

BUT THOSE ARE JUST MY PERSONAL THOUGHTS, obv. They are not true of other players, or of people in general. They are not a statement on Malicant's entire in-game presence or how he's supposed to be or whatever, just my perception, which is a snapshot utilizing very limited information.
jirk: (Default)

[personal profile] jirk 2013-07-21 06:38 pm (UTC)(link)
Ohhh yeah, okay. I see what you mean.

I'll def keep that in mind for any future encounters, thanks bb. <3
littlecousin: (Default)

[personal profile] littlecousin 2013-07-21 07:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Sorry, I was writing at like 3:30 am. Not conducive to clarity.

Anyway, I just wrote this long-ass post and realized it was rambling and redundant.

So the principle involved: You want to set the limits for what people can do--either physically or socially possible, or on a meta-level ("we need to you to not break the game")--and make it clear that you're okay with however they decide to solve the puzzle within those limits. Your goal as a mod is usually to 1. resolve an NPC conflict or 2. get some information out to the game at large. How the players do that isn't as important as that it gets done. In this RP format, people are more interested in narrative than in Winning All the Things, so trusting them to work with you is the way to go.

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